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Re: The man, who made the bad situation public. Meet Daniel Trout :o)

I guess that's about as much an apology as you are going to get from Mr. Trout.
So in other words... not.

I guess Bobbi has a patent on proprietary heat-activated material. smile
To me that's what proprietary means. No one else can use it.

I would have to see what Rachel says about the "shrink tube" whether or not it was flexible enough to use as a short cut for firming the transition.
It's been my experience that anything with nylon in it, gets brittle when heated or melted.
If it's so flexible, why did it crack right at the center point of the transition which it looks like it did?
I'll tell you why, it's not flexible, and the transition was not bound correctly.
This is still a crap whip. How can you defend that.

His explanation about the "childs whip" still does not hold water.
She states on her website that it's not a toy and is made to the same "high standards" as her other whips. Then her methods of making whips has devolved to making cheap whips, inferior whips that she sells for big money. Or so it appears.

As far as the "Germany" statement he made. I speak and understand English very well. It's not a second language to me, and I took what he said the same way that everyone else did. Not his weak attempt to walk it back.

This whole letter reminds me of Hillary Clinton's explanations bout her private server, emails and the like.
There's no good justification for the way this whip was made, PERIOD.

My advise to Mr. Trout is to walk away from the shovel and stop digging.

I would not respond except to say, "Thank you for your apology Mr. Trout. I appreciate it." Then let him keep digging until he has to start typing in Chinese to be understood.

Ron

When you're choreographing your life, sometimes you have to dance with the music you're given.

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Re: The man, who made the bad situation public. Meet Daniel Trout :o)

Another thing about the "child's whip". (this just bugs me to no end)
The replacement whip was a whip made for a child, not a "child's whip".
There's a big difference.
Quality is quality no matter what you are making or who you are making it for.

Thank you Rachel.

Ron

When you're choreographing your life, sometimes you have to dance with the music you're given.

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Re: The man, who made the bad situation public. Meet Daniel Trout :o)

Mr. Trout's words:

"The whip sent to Mz. McCullough for examination was a $50 children's whip.  It was made SPECIFICALLY for a child, not an adult.  I have recently handled a similar childs whip that was made by Mrs. HolyOak.  I found the craftsmanship to be superb and the handling second to none for what it was.   BUT it was a $50 children's whip.  It's was a GREAT little whip for a kid, but to expect it to have an identical performance and construction to one of her $300USD Valkyries is as ludicrous as expecting a $150USD Dell laptop to outperform a $2000USD high-end Alienware computer built for a serious gamer.

If this whip was represented to you as anything beyond being a children's whip, similar to the hatband whips, little snappers, or pocket whips that many whipmakers sell as novelties, then you have been mislead, and I genuinely hope that an artisan member of the Ring didn't sell their skill short making a replacement for it that would go for $300 USD retail because that is not fair to them or to the Ring itself."

The whip maker's representation of that same whip (taken from Mrs. Holyoak's own website and with emphasis added):

"The Whipper Snapper!!

This is a whip built for children ages 2 to 8.  It is not a toy and is not and adult sized 4 foot whip.  The idea is a real whip that is balanced for a tiny person.

If you have a special kid in your life who would like to start cracking, I offer these for $50 with the order of a full sized whip."

As much as Mr. Trout is trying to make a case on behalf of Mrs. Holyoak, the whip maker's own words undermine his efforts. 

Again, to quote Mr. Trout: "The artificial sinew binding was not wrapped as tightly for that reason."

Really? I admit that I'm not a whip maker, but if you aren't going to wrap the binding at least firmly (and then tie it with an actual knot), what is the point of even doing the binding?  To me, this sounds like "Yeah, I meant to do that..."

Mr. Trout's words again: "The purple material, (an untreated section of which sits here on my desk as I type this,) is indeed a proprietary heat-activated material that has a nylon webbing component as it's base.  It will not get brittle, it will not break down as the shrink-tubing for wiring harnesses will."

This one has two parts.  First, to the claim that this substance will not get brittle and will not break down.  How can one claim this, in light of photographic evidence to the contrary?  A "proprietary heat-activated material that has a nylon webbing component as it's base"?  The rest of us call that heat-shrink tubing.  It being labeled "proprietary" (remember his word, not mine) only suggests that Mrs. Holyoak has gone through considerable trouble to pick out a specific heat-shrink tubing that she regularly utilizes in the construction of her whips.  Otherwise, why would she need a "proprietary" material only to utilize in one whip or one style of whips? Has Mr. Trout just unwittingly told us how Mrs. Holyoak constructs all of her whips? 

I'm not a cattle rancher, but I've been exposed to enough bull**** throughout the course of my life to be able to recognize it when I happen upon it...

Common sense is now so uncommon that it should be officially reclassified as a super power...

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Re: The man, who made the bad situation public. Meet Daniel Trout :o)

I'm incredibly busy thanks to uni at the moment, but I'm just going to say, I have my first whip that I made with artificial sinew, and even though I let absolutely everyone abuse the shit out of it, it still doesn't break. So if yours does, then maybe the material is not good. Maybe.

Also, defending it as "it's just a child's whip!" is just stupid, you're supposed to uphold your quality of prop, even if it's made for a smaller person. If she had written "This whip is made to be a cheaper lesser quality whip" then that'd be fine. His argument of the computers is not relevant - the specifications of the computers are shown to you when you buy the computer, so you know what's in it!...which is not the case here, obviously.

May your cracks be sharp and loud, and your plaiting straight as an arrow!

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Re: The man, who made the bad situation public. Meet Daniel Trout :o)

Exactly.

I hug the people I hate, so I know how big to dig the hole in the backyard.

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Re: The man, who made the bad situation public. Meet Daniel Trout :o)

He has the untreated material sitting on his desk, so of course it's flexible... it hasn't been subjected to any heat.

Has Bobbi actually done R&D on this material?
Has she made a whip and put it thoroughly through it's paces and then done an autopsy of her own to see how it held up?

It cracked because that's it's nature and low end methods of binding, if you can call it that, were used prior and underneath it.
It cracked because it's a crap material to use in a whip at a high stress point.

The bottom line is that it cracked!

"Abuse" ? This whip would have broken down under proper whip cracking methods and skills. It had improper attachment of the core, to the handle. It had improper binding of the core and transition. It had improper materials used to firm up the transition.
It's an improperly made crap whip.
That's the simple factual truth.

Ron

When you're choreographing your life, sometimes you have to dance with the music you're given.

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Re: The man, who made the bad situation public. Meet Daniel Trout :o)

I must apologize.  Im my haste to complete my above post, I neglected to draw attention to the following paragraph written by Mr. Trout:

"Beyond that, I know very little else about it, save that the particular diameters and lengths that Mrs. HolyOak uses in her whips were manufactured specifically for her needs.  It is not regularly commercially available.  As someone who has, as stated, worked directly with Bobbi in beginning my own exploration of whip making, I had the same questions and concerns that you had as I applied it to the core of the whip I was making.  The above was explained to me."

I suggested earlier that one does not usually have a "proprietary...material" made for a one-off use. It could also be inferred, that one would regularly utilize any material that one has gone through the trouble of having "...particular diameters and lengths...manufactured specifically for [ones] needs."

Here, though, Mr. Trout actually tells us that Mrs. Holyoak regularly uses such materials in the construction of her whips!  Further, he tells us that she taught him to build whips utilizing the same materials, did so despite his concerns and objections over how they might perform and that he constructed at least one whip under her tutelage utilizing those same materials!

I don't think there can be any doubt that such construction is the status quo at HolyOak Whips.  We've seen the evidence, and Mr. Trout has confirmed it for us, even expanding and deepening our knowledge of the same.

Mr. Trout, despite it being misguided, your loyalty to your friend is admirable.  With that said, enough is enough.  You knew better and you objected.  She then fed you a line of BS, and you bought it hook, line, and sinker, as they say.  There's no crime in being duped, but you don't need to rush to the defense of the one who duped you in order to save face.  It only serves to make you appear complicit...

Common sense is now so uncommon that it should be officially reclassified as a super power...

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Re: The man, who made the bad situation public. Meet Daniel Trout :o)

It's amazing how twisted a story becomes when the TRUE guilty party starts squirming around in the cesspool THEY created. Again, FACTS... Not FICTION.

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Re: The man, who made the bad situation public. Meet Daniel Trout :o)

Shrink tubing is shrink tubing. Anything that gets tight when you heat it also becomes brittle. That's physics.

Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates.
          -Mark Twain

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Re: The man, who made the bad situation public. Meet Daniel Trout :o)

I just can't get past the crack in the picture, compared with the statement.  That, and I agree that the "child's whip"defense is bogus.  Let me illustrate this with a pop quiz:

  For those of you who have children, you have bought them things like clothes and shoes.  If these things fell apart under normal use you would take them back to the store, yes?  Can anyone imagine being told, "Well, yeah, those are Nikes but they're made for a child so we don't really secure the soles, we just use elmers glue, because, you know, it's just for a kid." 

Would that hold water?  Ever?  Also, the text from Bobbi's site says she offers them for $50 when you're also purchasing an adult whip, which suggests there is another price if you only want the child's whip.

Yaprimascharif, Yahasanna Hadisany, elafinas tabachu, Dari chalemy elasin!

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Re: The man, who made the bad situation public. Meet Daniel Trout :o)

Well put Tyler! Couldn't have said it better...

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Re: The man, who made the bad situation public. Meet Daniel Trout :o)

Tyler, good comparison.

About the computer comparison of Dan, they're different brands so that doesn't hold up in any way.

Dan keeps contradicting himself over and over.
It's tiring.
And in all this, I haven't heard a single word from Bobbi.

Sven

Sven

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Re: The man, who made the bad situation public. Meet Daniel Trout :o)

Madness

'Sic Parvis Magna'

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Re: The man, who made the bad situation public. Meet Daniel Trout :o)

You won't hear from Bobbi.

I hug the people I hate, so I know how big to dig the hole in the backyard.

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Re: The man, who made the bad situation public. Meet Daniel Trout :o)

Jessie, of course I ment to say WE hear instead of I.

But aside from that typo, I'm afraid you are right.

Sven