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Topic: Calculations

When I make a whip, I’ve always done everything in equal increments. For example, I have the first belly reach to around a third of the thong, second belly extends to two thirds, and the overlay the full length. When I’m planning out a round of plaiting, I drop two strands (staggered, of course tongue) at equal increments, so if I start at 8 plait and I’m plaiting for 30 inches, I’ll drop a strand at 9 in and another at 11 in and then at 19 in and 21 in. This has always worked for me but I just KNOW there has to be a better method for this because it just seems too easy. It is whipmaking after all. On a side note, I’ve had a couple fruitless searches on what closed vs open loop binding is if anyone would be kind enough to explain? P.S. — Sorry if this is in the wrong section :S

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Re: Calculations

Donovan, that's a pretty good method for calculating bellies and drops. I can be adjusted if you want a whip with more mass at the end (just carry the bellies and drops a bit further down the thong,) etc.

Closed loop binding is winding the sinew around the whip so that there are no gaps (like whipping the end of a rope to keep it from fraying) and open loop is wrapping at an angle so that it forms a web like structure around the belly.

BTW, who is the youngster in your photo. He seems to think you're alright.

Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

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Re: Calculations

Mark answered the open vs closed loop question perfect. As far as strands and bellies, there's no right or wrong way I'm finding, just better ways. What's the better way? Well, it depends what you want. If you want a whip that is fast and light, then less weight and not as nose heavy. If you want a slow dramatic movement, possibly more weight and real even taper to a little nose heavy. I don't know if I've made the same whip twice yet because each one is different as I am finding what I want. You ask 10 whip makers and you'll get 15 answers lol

“Trust your own instinct. Your mistakes might as well be your own, instead of someone else’s.” ~Billy Wilder

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Re: Calculations

Thanks Mark, seems like I haven’t been doing everything all wrong then. I had a hunch that the binding had something to do with spiral as opposed to “cross cross.” And that’s my little brother! He’s the spitting image of me aint he?

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Re: Calculations

Collin I think that’s the best phrase I’ve heard all year and it’s almost December. The whip I’m working on at the moment is weighted for about 3/4 of the thong. I’m trying to optimize it for cutting cards out of the air, so I made it heavy for accuracy and force, but chose an 18 inch handle so that I can let it out faster since the card will be moving. I’m only really basing this out of my personal knowledge of whips so it might not be the best for its original purpose, but she’ll tell me what she wants to do.

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Re: Calculations

Collin, " You ask 10 whip makers and you'll get 15 answers."
That's exactly right. smile

Ron

Yesterday I spotted an albino dalmatian.
It was the least I could do for him.

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Re: Calculations

That is what I started with the I first got into whipmaking. I am using an even taper like you described in the three prototype stock whip builds I am working on. Since you generally don't want stockwhips to be nose heavy. But for other types of whips than I drop double for most of a thong's length, and then single for the last few drops. (When you double drop you need to wait a bit longer before you drop so the next plait count can sufficiently cover the dropped strands and core.) So in other words I use a noose heavy taper on most of my whips so that they can practically crack themselves. smile

The short of it is, what ever works for you, and in the way you intend, go for it!

Good luck with your build! Looking forward to seeing the result.

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious."
- Albert Einstein

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Re: Calculations

I agree with the nose heavy tapering (I found this easier to control and to crack)

PS: I do my calculation using the weight and not the number of strands...
because I want tapering on the mass (weight)

So, in adimensional numbers a single strand going straight the tongue equal to 1 (eg: the core with no BBs or ballchain); a strand plaited equal to 1,5 (sqrt(2)=1,41 because ideally we are plaiting at 45° and that's the value of the hypotenuse of a right triangle with cathetus equal to 1).
And a number of 1,2 if twisted strand.


PS: this the weight of my material:
each 4,5 steel BB = 0,37 gr (22 BBs in 10 cm of tongue =8,14 gr)
(I wish I could find L size ballchain... in the range of 6 gr each 10 cm)
each M size ballchain = 0,17 gr (29 BBs in 10 cm of tongue =4,93 gr)
each S size ballchain = 0,11 gr (33 BBs in 10 cm of tongue =3,63 gr)
(I wish I could find XS size ballchain... in the range of 2 gr each 10 cm)
10 cm of ungutted paracord = 0,70 gr (multiplied by 1 if used on the core)
10 cm of gutted paracord = 0,23 gr (multiplied by 1,5 if plaited; 1,2 il twisted; 1 if used on the core or dropped straight parallel to the core)
Ah, I'm not considering the weight of the binding... simply I did'n yet... (but I feel that somehow with a good tapering on the binding itself it it will not affect the result of tapering)


Those are example (don't look at the value on the y axis... in the first photo is gr/10cm... the second has only adimensional numbers), on the x axis there is the tongue (from left=handle -to- right=fall knot):
https://i.postimg.cc/j2fkFxd4/Whip-08.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/cH2bhgZJ/Whip-07.jpg

PS: "Lineare (Massa)" is the trend line (tapering) of "Massa" (the italian translation of Mass)... so if Massa is close to the trend line I achieved the goal I'm looking for.

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Re: Calculations

Very good research Marco.
I wouldn't overthink the process too much though, but ti does sound like a good template.

Ron

Yesterday I spotted an albino dalmatian.
It was the least I could do for him.

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Re: Calculations

I have been making a spreadsheet since I started and keeping rough (very rough) notes and formulas. For those who have seen Nicks strand lengths on his website, many of these came directly from that to give proper credit, which I then edited. A lot of people complained his lengths usually came up short...this could be due to new people plaiting with bad technique, but either way I like wiggle room so adjusted most. I don't know if the calculator highlighted in yellow will work with the link. I can modify it if you'd like to use it, or give you the formula to put into an excel yourself. But either way, feel free to use this at your disposal, and if something is wrong let me know! It's just a nice quick way for me to be able to cut paracord as I go. PS, these lengths give a bullwhip that is pretty evenly staggered close to the 3rds rule if you run down to the end. You of course can drop wherever you want, just keep notes if you wanted to drop lower and a particular strand was too short so you can change later.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zRWOsv … sp=sharing

“Trust your own instinct. Your mistakes might as well be your own, instead of someone else’s.” ~Billy Wilder

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Re: Calculations

Nice! You two really have the math down! smile I personally have just been taking rough notes on paper and then adjusting lengths and such so I get the result I want next time.

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious."
- Albert Einstein

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Re: Calculations

Marco, you lost me at the first sqrt(), but amazing nonetheless.  Me, I just wing it.

I have general ideas about thickness and length, and if I want the whip to be a bit more heavy I lengthen the bolsters a bit more.  That is one of the advantages of leather whipmaking; you can adjust strand width as necessary.  If strands are bunching up I can either drop a strand or 2, or I can take a small bevel of all the strands to narrow them slightly.  Either way it works.

Here's wishing you find time for the things you want to do, and for the things you need to do.
We see ourselves in our children and hope for a better future.

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Re: Calculations

I measure roughly based on my notes, but don't get too chuffed about it. I'm a bit more picky about the roo hide. It is a bit more expensive. On the other hand I seem to redo things a lot, maybe that's why.

Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

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Re: Calculations

I've just been using a spreadsheet I made based on strand count per inch.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ … sp=sharing

I add up all the counts from the core, bellies and overlay, so in this case 4-8-12-16 has been what I've been using, making 40 strand count at the thickest.  Then I just start at the Overlay, and work my way back down through the bellies dropping strands to keep the taper I want, tweaking it to make sure I don't drop any two strands on different bellies at the same point.  As for cut lengths, I just multiply by 2.5 to be sure I have plenty of material.

There are, like has been mentioned, quite a number of ways to skin a cat (or is that skin a roo?), and they all put out some very fine whips indeed. It's one of the joys of this hobby, the sheer quantity of ways a whip can be made.  I even saw someone using the Fibonacci Series, so you'll settle into something that works well for you smile

Practice does not actually make perfect; Perfect practice makes perfect.

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Re: Calculations

I forgot to mention that with kangaroo whips I've made I start with core strands, then 2 4plait bellies and bolsters, and then the overlay.  12 strand overlay is common, but I have done 16.  I have done a 24plait handle before on a stockwhip.

Here's wishing you find time for the things you want to do, and for the things you need to do.
We see ourselves in our children and hope for a better future.