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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Well, if you dig a grave for someone else you yourself will fall into it.
That's a saying we have in the Netherlands. And that's what Mr. Trout seems to be doing.

It's like a kindergarten out there.

I thank you Robby for your exemplary behaviour in this situation and for the positive attention WB has gotten. 9 emails aside, that is, but they seem to be written by children playing in the kindergarten.

I'm, for a fact, proud to be a member of WB and the standards it upholds.

Sven

You've chosen wisely...

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

It's crazy that people are accusing the members of the ROT of interfering with somebody elses buisness in sneaky way and that people are insulting Robby because of this issue. All he and the members of the ROT did was to keep their words. Don't these people know how the ROT works or what the idea behind the ROT is?
The accusation of ROT members calling Mrs. Holyoaks customers shows how little the people who made these accusations have logicaly thought about it - Brandon mentioned it - how should anyone from the ROT get the contact data which would be required to do so?

Robby, I certainly know that this isn't the first time that you got verbally attackt for keeping the standards of the ROT and of the forum as well - thank you very much for your work!

All the best
Ben

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Ben, I think a lot of these people don't have the attention span to gather all the facts first before forming an opinion or speaking about it.  It's a lot faster to jump to conclusions than it is to read sad

Yaprimascharif, Yahasanna Hadisany, elafinas tabachu, Dari chalemy elasin!

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Tyler, that sounds about right. People always jump to conclusions too fast.

I have to admit having done that myself sometimes. But I consider them learning moments.
That doesn't take away from the fact that people like to hear what they want to hear and form an opinion by that.
The internet is a catalyst is that matter. It's a difficult thing calling someone out in his/her face, but the internet makes it a whole lot easier, there's no physical contact, there's just words on a screen.
It's like cyber bullying, the people that bully are often the people that would be bullied when in physical contact on the playground. But sitting behind a computer is a safe zone, it's easier.
And that's not a good thing.

Sven

You've chosen wisely...

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

It is sad to see that keeping the integrity of ROT has resulted in such attacks - but clearly shos that ROT is all about integrity - so good job

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

I for one cannot stand by and let a family member, friend, or the community I love being bad mouthed when there's no compunction for the truth to be told or the facts made clear.
If I see a wrong or a lie, I have to make it right or set the record straight.

I choose to be a member of the family and not just a member of the community.
In doing so I must , for my own piece of mind, act accordingly.

They say you can't choose your family, but here..... you can.

Ron

There's no better karate move instructor than a spider web suddenly on your face.

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

This is all very peculiar.

Very strange to try and "defend" your "friend" by attracting more attention to the fact that there's been a defect.
The original autopsy thread is very objective and the customer manifest is very unbiased.

Seems like these people take it personally for one reason or another.
Attacking the community like that is very irresponsible as it is stupid.

I see nothing wrong in what's been done here in the forum.

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

It's sickening how warped people take cheap shots at people trying to uphold standards! RoT is a group of people I personally respect. Not only for who they are and how they carry themselves, but for their relentless pursuit of quality and integrity as whip makers. My advice to the cheap shoters is to get the facts straight before you open your mouth. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see through the BS. You can't prove one single attacking statement you have vomited out and it is obvious that you don't have a clue to what you are saying. If the members of RoT were even 1/1000th anything close to what you allege they wouldn't be HERE! So go find something REAL to become passionate about and make something productive out of yourself! Facts are facts, they don't lie. There's you a free life lesson! You attack one of us, you in essence are attacking ALL of us. At some point you have to grow up.

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

"My friend might have made a bad product. Sell yours to me, and I won't have to go through the wait period typical of ordering a whip. I want this for me, not for you. Also, don't buy their product, it could be defective, but I guarantee it isn't."

100% dizzying logic from Mr. Trout.

Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates.
          -Mark Twain

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

LOL, well there IS that.

Due to rising costs, dirty deeds are no longer done dirt cheap. 
                                                                                    ~Management

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

His logic just goes around and around in circles.

Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates.
          -Mark Twain

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

It's a sham attack... It's obvious... He can't even keep up with his own storyline. Very pitiful script writing...

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

I've been trying to get my head around it, but I keep tripping a breaker...

Gravity: it's not just a good idea, it's the law!

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

I have an open mind, but right now it's closed for maintenance.

Ron

There's no better karate move instructor than a spider web suddenly on your face.

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Ron, smile

As I said, Dan is digging his own grave. It's unfortunate he tries to drag Bobbi into it. Then again, she should know better about constructing a whip like that.
It's just too bad it blew up like this, Bobbi might still have come out of this, if she acted accordingly.

Right now, it's just waiting for the dust to settle and pickup from there.

Sven

You've chosen wisely...

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Sven, that's if they will let the dust settle.

Ron

There's no better karate move instructor than a spider web suddenly on your face.

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Ron, true. But they can't keep going on like this right? I just hope they don't fling any more feces at WB.

Sven

You've chosen wisely...

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

It is absolutely absurd that Robby, the RoT, or anyone within Whip Basics is receiving grief or blame for anything to do with this matter. From the pictures it is very obvious that the whip in question was not built with care. The loose binding looks absolutely worthless. Bobbi builds wonderful whips, but this is not one of them.
Robby Amper is looking out for the little man. People that have saved their money to buy a dependable whip that they can enjoy and learn with for a long time. I trust his opinion on the subject over anyone else.
This whole matter simply proves that the Ring of Trust worked exactly like Robby designed it to.

He died for me, I'll live for him

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Roy Partin wrote:

It is absolutely absurd that Robby, the RoT, or anyone within Whip Basics is receiving grief or blame for anything to do with this matter. From the pictures it is very obvious that the whip in question was not built with care. The loose binding looks absolutely worthless. Bobbi builds wonderful whips, but this is not one of them.
Robby Amper is looking out for the little man. People that have saved their money to buy a dependable whip that they can enjoy and learn with for a long time. I trust his opinion on the subject over anyone else.
This whole matter simply proves that the Ring of Trust worked exactly like Robby designed it to.

Amen

Inch by inch.

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Per request, so the whole story is told in all threads, A repost from the original thread.  You are welcome to read the discussion  in the original thread HERE:  http://www.whip-basics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=5930

Am 28.08.2017 um 03:29 schrieb Daniel Trout <mach1whips@gmail.com>:
Robby,
Thank you for your time in responding to this.

First of all, I only requested that you remove the links and references to my site.  I have no idea what you are referring to in terms of "...As I demanded" in changing the title of any thread.  I have "demanded" nothing.   
ALSO, I never claimed the whip was sent to Germany for examination.  I never mentioned Rachel McCullough nor Wolf Tree Whips, though I read very clearly who did it.  I said nothing about that who did the examining, nor the situation which prompted the action taken  My statement was simply this:
"While I have no doubt that they wholeheartedly believe the information they present, I can assure you that what they think they know and the truth of the matter are two, VERY different things.
I have personally worked with Bobbi one-on-one, observing her whip-making techniques, and have begun my own exploration of whip making under her guidance, and I can say as a person who has trained with some of the finest whip artists around and has handled whips from some of the finest whipmakers in the world, that the accusations of poor craftsmanship are completely unfounded. I will address that further at a later date, but for the time being, I have a recommendation.
Don't accept the one-sided argument. Give the matter due diligence."
I urge you to contact Bobbi directly to discuss any type of doubts this may instill in you about their longevity, efficacy and construction and let HER address this misconception before sending your whip off to Germany for an exchange in some seemingly gracious "Ring of Trust" endeavor.
If at that point you decide to cancel an order, return a whip, or whatever you deem is best, DO SO THEN...
The statement of "Sending it to Germany" might as well have said "Send it to Abu Dhabi."  I don't know the process you use, nor as a non-member of Whip Basics do I really care to.  I was simply saying "Before you, a concerned owner of a HolyOak Whips bullwhip, do anything, talk to Bobbi..."
If you would like for me to publicly clarify these statements about "Sending a Whip to Germany," I will gladly do so as I can see how that statement could be misconstrued, especially by folks for whom English, (and especially the American Vernacular,) is a second language.
That stated, I myself attempt to follow considerable due diligence to report fact, and I appreciate your efforts to bring me up to speed on matters I may have not had all the information on.  With that honesty and dedication to fact as our common ground, let me tell you what I know.
The whip sent to Mz. McCullough for examination was a $50 children's whip.  It was made SPECIFICALLY for a child, not an adult.  I have recently handled a similar childs whip that was made by Mrs. HolyOak.  I found the craftsmanship to be superb and the handling second to none for what it was.   BUT it was a $50 children's whip.  It's was a GREAT little whip for a kid, but to expect it to have an identical performance and construction to one of her $300USD Valkyries is as ludicrous as expecting a $150USD Dell laptop to outperform a $2000USD high-end Alienware computer built for a serious gamer.
If this whip was represented to you as anything beyond being a children's whip, similar to the hatband whips, little snappers, or pocket whips that many whipmakers sell as novelties, then you have been mislead, and I genuinely hope that an artisan member of the Ring didn't sell their skill short making a replacement for it that would go for $300 USD retail because that is not fair to them or to the Ring itself.
The artificial sinew binding was not wrapped as tightly for that reason.  It was meant to be have good flexibility and flow for a child, not an adult.  Based upon the appearance of the core of the whip that Mz. McCollough received, it appears to me that an adult was over-muscling said whip.
That however is pure conjecture on my part, admittedly.   
What is NOT conjecture, and what seems to be the whole knot of contention in the your post in Autopsy of a Whip is the "unknown purple material" that you have identified as shrink tubing.
This is an understandable misconception, and as the "Autopsy" was done several thousand miles from you, there was no way for you to closely examine the material, and there is no reason for Mz. McCullough to examine it beyond what you understandably assumed.
The purple material, (an untreated section of which sits here on my desk as I type this,) is indeed a proprietary heat-activated material that has a nylon webbing component as it's base.  It will not get brittle, it will not break down as the shrink-tubing for wiring harnesses will.
Beyond that, I know very little else about it, save that the particular diameters and lengths that Mrs. HolyOak uses in her whips were manufactured specifically for her needs.  It is not regularly commercially available.  As someone who has, as stated, worked directly with Bobbi in beginning my own exploration of whip making, I had the same questions and concerns that you had as I applied it to the core of the whip I was making.  The above was explained to me.
The disconnection and apparent "cracking" in the material in the "Autopsy" photos look to me like an abuse issue by an adult, (as previously stated,) moreso that a construction issue.  However, that is certainly open to interpretation.  I do know that the material is used in all of the Valkyrie, DeLongis Alignment, Sonic Alignment, and Tibetan Wave bullwhips, and having just spent a weekend handling bullwhips owned by Ron Lew, Anthony Delongis, (for whom it is not unusual to be working with a whip for hours at a time every day of the week,) and other previous customers, (my own four HolyOak Whips included.)  Not a single one of those whips showed any signs at all of any physical breakdown or loss of flexibility.
And that is where we leave this.  The information is there.  The facts have been presented on both sides, and I feel we both were lacking some critical details here, so thank you for this productive exchange.
What we choose to accept and/or contest as facts are up to us individually and to Bobbi's customers.  I stand by my statements, and if you feel the need to bring lawyers into it, I can and will do nothing to stop you.  Nor will I let that deter me in my pursuit of facts, I believe we ultimately want the same thing here, and if you feel the need to pursue the matter legally, so be it.
I also stand by my statements that if anyone in the Whip Basics Community, (you included,) feels that they want divest themselves of their HolyOak bullwhips, I will pay a fair price for them on the condition that they have not been misused or abused.  I don't offer it as a slight against you or your colleagues in the Ring of Trust.  I greatly respect the idea and the artisans that carry it forward.  I merely offer it as an alternative for them to chose from, as I personally feel in this instance you are mistaken.  But that is, again, not my decision nor place to make
Thank you for your time, dedication, and civility in this matter.
Respectfully,
Dan

Due to rising costs, dirty deeds are no longer done dirt cheap. 
                                                                                    ~Management