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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Robby - you are absolute wrong here.... I am from denmark

22

Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Oh, damn... Sorry. You know - for us here it is all the same. Sweden, Denmark, Yellowstone...  wink

Robby

I have a screwdriver. I am Legend...

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Robby Amper wrote:

Oh, damn... Sorry. You know - for us here it is all the same. Sweden, Denmark, Yellowstone...  wink

Robby

big_smile big_smile big_smile

Inch by inch.

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

So sorry Morten, Denmark.

I think the point is not really the country, but the fact that it was a private conversation that you have every right to have with a potential customer.  From what I have gathered, it was handled just as it should have been handled.  Your friend talked to Bobbi herself and she assured him that it would be done the way she advertises that it will be done. As long as this is true, there is no problem and her reputation is perfectly fine.  Everyone has a right to know about an issue.  This is why places like Ebay, Amazon, or Wish has a rating system, so that people can talk about pros and cons, merchants can learn what they need to do to improve on their products and people can ask questions and make an informed decision about the products that they are spending their hard earned money on.   

Honestly, this was 1 instance with 1 whip and it was blown right out of proportion complete with "conspiracies" and "lies."  What Bobbi should do with this is either disclose that these whips are made quickly and to lesser quality, make clear that they are toys and won't last, OR make them the way she advertises on her website that ALL of her whips are made using no tapes at all and made under the highest standards--all of them, the children's whips and the professional whips.  I mean, that's how it works.  You don't sell a glass cabochon necklace under the guise of the same quality as a 1/2 carat diamond.  So if you don't want your child whips to be expected to perform as you clearly state on your website that ALL your whips perform, then you need to make that clear on the website.  Not a big deal.

If you fall, I'll be there.
                            ~Floor

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

I don't know how much the "child's whip" was sold for; it should have been made to the same standards as she states all of her whips are made on her website.

What makes a child's whip different from an adult's whip anyway... length.... weight... diameter ?

I would make a very short whip with the same methods and procedures that I would make a long monster. In fact, a "child's whip" should be made with even higher standards than an adult's whip, because you know a child will have more of a tendency to miss use and abuse it , in most cases not all, than an adult.

My point is that if you use "xyz" process to make an "adult whip" you should use "xyz" in a "child's whip" as well.

Using the excuse that it was only a child's whip, just won't work.
It was still made with crap methods and materials.

Ron

People who misuse the words burro and burrow, don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

That is exactly the point. That child whip is just a smaller version of an adult whip. The quality should be exactly the same. If the small one looks like this at the inside. What looks the larger one like?

Robby

I have a screwdriver. I am Legend...

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Ron, exactly!

I just copied this text from Mrs. Holyoak's site:

"The Whipper Snapper!!

This is a whip built for children ages 2 to 8.  It is not a toy and is not and adult sized 4 foot whip.  The idea is a real whip that is balanced for a tiny person.

If you have a special kid in your life who would like to start cracking, I offer these for $50 with the order of a full sized whip."

The link to the page from which it was copied is here:  http://www.holyoak-whips.com/custom-designs.html

This whip was ordered with a full-sized whip (which was never received).  Perhaps Mr. Trout has never seen this text on Mrs. Holyoak's page.  If he has, then his claim that this was "only" a $50 kid's whip is disingenuous, at best.  With regard to his claim that the whip was heavily abused, I'd like to know on what he has based this statement.  Did he inspect the whip?  Regardless of whether or not there was any abuse, much less "heavy abuse", it does not change the fact that tape (which Mrs. Holyoak explicitly states is never used in the construction of her whips) and shrink wrap were incorporated into the construction of this whip.  No amount of abuse, short of magic, will make these (or any other) materials appear inside the whip if they weren't put there by the whip maker who, incidentally, has complete control over both the design and the pricing of said whip.

If you drop the baby, fake a seizure...

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Scott, there ya go.

Ron

People who misuse the words burro and burrow, don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Yep, she clearly states this is not a toy or novelty and it is made just like her other whips, only mini.  Thus, to be held to the same standards. Why can't anyone admit to making a mistake and then fix it?  We are not perfect people.    Nice try.  Next. 

This whole thing is so stupid.  Has no one ever gotten a customer complaint?  It's not like Scott didn't come to her first, which he did and it was over a year of excuses before he was refunded.  Come on. 

The Ring is a standard, and it's important and when people who were once in it, proud "founders" of it are no longer in it, people notice.   It's simply about honesty, integrity and keeping customers happy, teaching the public that there is a huge, thick gully between family friendly and private pursuits, and standards apply to all.  If the standards are set by the seller and not met after multiple attempts with the seller, the Ring of Trust steps in to make it right. 

Bobbi knew this, proudly explained it as a founding member on her website, and STILL chose to do business as she did.  This should be no surprise to her, then, that this happened when a customer was not cared for and felt the need to talk to someone about it, nor should she be clueless on how to fix it. 

If I was Bobbi, I would be absolutely furious with Dan Trout and everyone else who draws attention to this.  While they spout on and on about ideas, opinions, and "feelings" labeling them as FACTS, the Forum has photographs, documentation, and several witnesses that were directly involved in the discussion, study, and execution that is good customer service.   

If Bobbi just now discovered that this happened and ran crying to her friends, that's fine.  But then her friends, instead of shooting fireworks into the sky, should look at the whole picture--both sides, as Dan Trout seems to want to endorse, and then help her fix the problem instead of fiercely defending lies, all the while drawing more attention to the real facts and photographs and hands-on witness accounts by those in the Ring that were directly involved in the decision making, the autopsy, record keeping and compensation for both the customer and the whipmaker

The whipmaker took the time to create a similar product to the standards SET ON BOBBI'S WEBSITE. Those are Bobbi's standards that are still displayed on her site.  Those very standards were the guidelines for the replacement.  Those VERY standards that should have been upheld IN THE FIRST PLACE with the price tag that came with it.  The customer FINALLY, after over a year of fighting, got what he paid for.   Well, shoot.

..and the clicks keep clicking, and the literate keep reading.

If you fall, I'll be there.
                            ~Floor

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Ron May wrote:

Robby, I would not hold my breath waiting for a list or even one name from Mr. Trout.
He doesn't have one.

I still have a hard time believing that Bobbi is ok with this.
Ron


I wasn't expecting anything at all  smile  He answered me with a loooot of text and even more lame excuses. And he told me that he won't answer any more emails, I send to him directly, because he is not... See for yourself:



Dan Trout:


Again, I have in no way specifically stated, insinuated, or implied that it was a member of the ROT that has been contacting Bobbi's customers, because in truth I have no idea who was contacted or by whom.  To provide any further information on this point would be conjecture on my part, and lead us further astray from the facts that you claim to hold dear.

Additionally, your demands for them have moved far beyond the parameters of mutually beneficial personal exchange.

I will say this again. even though repetition of my points of fact has not seemed to make any sort of impact on your accusations.
This is my final statement on the matter.  No further discourse in this email will be forthcoming from me. 

If you need further clarification on why my public statements are in no way legally definable as slander OR libel, OR if you desire further clarification on what you have the legal rights to demand of me or Mrs. HolyOak, (Names. Now. Please.) I recommend seeking good legal counsel.  I will respond to nothing further via personal email,

Thank you,

Dan



In the beginning, Bobbi's customers were contacted "in a blatantly misleading way by some members of the Ring of Trust". Now Dan never said anything against the RoT members. The whole thing reminds me of a classic italian comedy from 1700. Stupid. Yes. But somehow funny. The interesting part is - at is was mentioned several times - that the whole thing was not such a big thing until Dan Trout and "Grandmaster" Ron Lew stirred it up in such a massive way. For my part I'm more than relaxed, now. I got my popcorn and enjoy the games. I don't know if Bobbi is happy about all that. But that is not my business.


Oh - I was talking to my lawyers this morning. They were pretty amused about the whole thing and they were more than entertained by what Dan Trout and Ron Lew did. What they told me translates best like this: "Mr. Amper - when those ladies and gentlemen ruin themselves with that more than questioanable tactics; why bother? Normally someone would try to cover such an uncomfortable situation. But when they feel the need to make it public - let them ruin themselves."


Okay  wink



Robby

I have a screwdriver. I am Legend...

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Robby, he could not defend his statements because he has no "facts" to support his false postings.

I agree with your legal council, that letting him make more rope and trying to defend poor whip making methods and uninformed statements, will be his and Bobbi's downfall.

She has made close to 850 whips and she knows better than to use "cheap" and "fast" methods. Beyond being comical, it's very saddening to see her "friends" and "supporters" hurting her any further.

She could put a stop to this by admitting that she made a bad whip and that it will never happen again in future whips. But that will never happen.

I believe she is a good person, wife, and mother to a special needs child and for that she is blessed. However, as far as integrity goes, it appears that she is lacking.

As with any war this "internet war" will come to an end. It will only hurt Bobbi, Dan, Ron Lew, and anyone who recommends and endorses her whips. They each on their websites support and endorse each other's business ventures.

I have a feeling there will be more refugees coming in the future, as unsatisfied customers.

I wish her the best for her life.

Ron

People who misuse the words burro and burrow, don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

To make sure that it is not overlooked - even not in this thread... - here is a copy of the post with the pictures & infos which was spread all over Facebook by Bobbi HolyOak's friends...:




Bobbi Holyoak ( www.Holyoak-whips.com ) was removed from the “Whip Basics Ring of Trust“. Shortly after that, I was contacted by a customer, who had issues with a whip he bought from Mrs. Holyoak. At the time he contacted me, he was aware that Mrs. Holyoak was no longer a member of the WB Ring of Trust. And that the guarantee and service which is assured by the members of the RoT - and myself - did not apply to her anymore. I brought this to the attention of the other members of the RoT and we all agreed that we have to help this customer, because, when he bought that whip from Holyoak whips, Mrs. Holyoak was a member of the RoT. And so we came to the conclusion that we are still responsible and we took full responsibility. The customer got a new whip - for free - made by Rachel McCollough from Wolfcreek Whips ( www.WolfCreekWhips.com ).



The whip was sent to one of the Members of the RoT for inspection. It was taken apart carefully and every step was documented. I will not comment on the pictures to avoid the impression that I am not neutral. And to be completely politically correct, the whip was inspected by a female whip maker: Mrs McCollough. One thing I have to mention is this: Mrs. Holyoak states until the present day (July 22, 2017) on her website, the following:


Quote:
"HolyOak whips are built using 550 & 650 nylon paracord, which does not mildew or rot. All whips have at least one braided belly as well as traditional bolsters.  I never use tape in the construction of my bolsters because every whip is waxed using the submersion technique.“..."I love my whips and take a lot of pride in each one.  I want you to love them too. I do have a formula that I use to make them but I am always tweaking things to improve the whips."

End Quote.



This is an example of how the Whip Basics Ring of Trust works. When I founded the Ring of Trust, I set the highest possible standards. Therefore the RoT has only a few members. Info on the Whip Basics Ring of Trust you will find right here:  http://www.whip-basics.com/trust/ From this point on I can’t recommend Holyoak-whips anymore. Please keep in mind, that if you buy from Holyoak-whips, the Ring of Trust is not responsible and we can’t help you from now on if you experience something like this. I won’t make any more comments on that matter. Here are the pictures with detailed descriptions.


Robert Amper
Founder of Whip Basics
Founder of the Whip Basics Ring of Trust





http://i.imgur.com/LwXlNOE.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/PuqJ3rt.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/8a9hzdm.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/jaVC5Vt.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/QtxcFfw.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/XJHHQEh.jpg



Explanation on the unknown purple material - Heat shrink

The use of heat shrink has been discussed on and off in the forum for over a year.  Each time it has been brought up, it was always discussed as a possibility, something that could be tried and tested. When seeing these photographs, the “unknown substance” was suspected to be heat shrink. One of our members started out as an electrician, but moved on to getting his degree as a master diesel mechanic, with a specialty in electrical.  He sees this substance every day and he confirmed my suspicions. That is most definitely heat shrink tubing. When asking about the properties of this product, he had this to say:

1.
Heat shrink is for isolating wires.  It is color coded because different wires do different things. Colors make differentiating what goes where easier.  This is why you find it in all colors.

2.
Wires, whether in a wall or in a vehicle are not meant to have to move. Therefore, heat shrink was not designed to move. At first it is somewhat flexible and rubbery, but that does not last long and eventually it will become brittle and crack.  This is very apparent in the photographs.  There is a crack at the hinge point between the barn spike and the first BB, and subsequently, a crack.

3.
Heat shrink is plastic and waterproof. There is no way for wax to be able to penetrate through all layers of the whip with heat shrink on the thong.

4.
Like electrical tape, heat shrink is not meant to be a valid replacement for binding a whip with sinew. It is not made to move, or flex. While this is not electrical tape, it is equal to it.  It is a faster and more ergonomic method of wrapping wires to isolate them.  It is a simpler form of electrical tape. 




http://i.imgur.com/JyZVopE.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/oOYkYKJ.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/crXrTdd.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/v5BZTPN.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/0GH0act.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/aL2sDNb.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/l35rsA0.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/7VomuDn.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/Lq5b4p1.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/UzTX4Kr.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/cVvk5Wq.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/CKg3E8l.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/S5Hc749.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/l39VGNG.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/EejFS6H.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/jYAWYgE.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/TmIGIVQ.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/JtBIDW6.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/INfXBhd.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/NE7uo5W.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/TDiV13f.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/ouvSoIY.jpg

I have a screwdriver. I am Legend...

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

I have had little or nothing to say about this topic, but it makes me amazed that there is always people who wants to make noice out of nothing.
This thing could't be done more open, honestly and civilized as it was made here and still someone began this show.

I am really happy that you can relax now Robby.

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Pictures speak a thousand words.
This is a poorly made whip.
Facts are facts.

Ron

People who misuse the words burro and burrow, don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

35

Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Thank, Ron and Jyri. The whole thing is really bad. But not for me nor for WB or the Ring of Trust. Quite the contrary - it brought a whole lot attention to Whip Basics. And a lot of emails... A little statistic for you  - in the meantime (until this moment)  I received exactly 43 emails.



In eight of them I was called a fucking Nazi, arrogant asshole, stupid german bastard, fucking Retard, that I have no idea about whips and/or whip cracking, I should go and fuck myself - all that reminded me on Bill Nones. It's exactly his style - and that the world would be a better place without me.


Well.


There were four emails from people who wanted to join the Ring of Trust.

Three folks who stated that all that is very, very sad. But not more.

Eight people asked who "the fuck" that Dan Trout is and "why the hell he tries to destroy Bobbi's Business".

Nineteen told me how shocked and disappointed they are with Bobbi HolyOak.




The world is a strange place, right? But sometimes...it becomes so weird that it becomes funny. And I know for sure that there will be more emails, according that story. I have tea. Thanks to Robert I have enough tea.



Robby

I have a screwdriver. I am Legend...

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Thanks for all you do Robby.  This world is a much better and brighter place with you in it, no doubt.  I appreciate you.

Inch by inch.

37

Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Robby, throughout this sorry saga, you have behaved impeccably. WB and the RoT have been shown to be civilised, honourable and reliable entities. It is a sad comment on today's world that people should insult you. They only insult themselves. Thank you very much for being the absolutely dependable person you are, and for creating this very respectable Forum, which seems to me to be quite excellent in every way.

'Less is often more!'

38

Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Perhaps Mr. Trout ought not to have swatted the bear on the end of his nose, hmm?  I find it amusing that he started the whole "conversation" and then when asked for facts, he suddenly doesn't want to talk about it anymore...  It would seem, based on Ron's earlier FB post, that this is his MO.

Stay the course, and well done, WB!

If you drop the baby, fake a seizure...

39

Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Good grief...   Robby, we have a saying here about "digging yourself deeper and deeper".   What it illustrates is starting with a small thing, a problem that could be an honest accident or something where someone should have known better- let's say a lie.  Instead of fixing the small problem by acknowledging it and hopefully, apologizing, some people will double down with excuses and lies in an effort to make themselves seem right and others to seem wrong and bad.  The "digging yourself deeper" thing means you start out standing in a small, shallow hole, maybe up to your ankles.  But then you grab a shovel and start digging, and before you know it you're up to your knees.  And then your shoulders.  People don't really dig these holes with shovels, but with their mouths.  And, in this age, they do it with their keyboards a lot.  So I imagine Dan Trout digging away, running his mouth like Foghorn Leghorn all the while.  That's the other thing about digging yourself deeper- people never seem to realize they're doing it!

  Please don't be stressed out by all of this Robby-  you're a good man and it was none of your doing smile

Yaprimascharif, Yahasanna Hadisany, elafinas tabachu, Dari chalemy elasin!

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Re: HolyOak Whips Vol. II - Featuring MC Dan Trout and Ron Lew

Yeah, just treat it like a kidney stone ..... it'll pass.

Ron

People who misuse the words burro and burrow, don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.