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Re: Whips and weapons

.

The questions, I still ask all the time are this:

How often do you carry a whip when you go out for dinner. Who carries a whip when going to the mall. Who'd carry a whip when you hang out with friends in a bar. Who takes a whip with him when going to the movies. Who has a whip in his/her backpack, when you go hiking, swimming...?

I know a lot of cops. I advised some of them on practical self defense. How much of them would take a whip on Duty when they're called to a "situation"? Exactly no one.

On the german Indiana Jones forum a member posted this: "My girlfriend and I were going out for a walk in the evening. My gf asked me to take my whip with me, because she feels much more safe when I do"

(Did ever in the history of mankind ANY woman ask her man to take a whip with him, because that makes her feeling more safe...?)

On with his his story:
"Suddenly there was a wild boar. Standing in the middle of the way! I took my whip from the belt, stepped onto that boar and started to crack my whip! And the wild boar run away!"

I called him a dumb liar. And I wrote there, that wild boar hate one thing more than everything else. And that is loud noises. So IF there was a wild boar, it was bothered. Good for him. Because I'd like to see someone defending himself against an attacking wild boar. Good luck.


And who - please - would carry a whip instead of a gun, knowing that he's going to face a real dangerous and critical situation? Anyone here, who carries his whip in a restaurant, in a bar, in a cinema...? Well... I never did.

Robby

I have a screwdriver. I am Legend...

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Re: Whips and weapons

I love it when this thread gets resurrected every once in a while.
It's an important subject for me, and indeed for us here at Whip Basics.

The whip is not a weapon, and in my opinion never has been.
Even Latigo y Daga, if you look for any demonstration videos of a whip being used as a weapon, you'll be dissappointed.

http://youtu.be/xPg1ZkZRR1Q

This guy's not even looking at what the whip is doing.

http://youtu.be/JHvg6d_UWWQ

That hardly represents efficient weapons use.

There is some application possibilities as a grappling/choking, deflecting device, but you could use a piece of garden hose or rope for that.

To crack a whip as a weapon is absolutely pointless. Yes you could place a well aimed cut in someone's face, ......... once.
If you swing a whip at someone or even do a straight throw as in target whipping, all the opponent has to do is to step forward or backward about six inches and they have left the effective area where the whip was going to inflict pain.
It's enough if someone swings a whip at me and I put my arm out. That would render the swing/throw absolutely useless and you'd need to pull back and throw again, by which time I've either run away or attacked.

I've seen and heard Anthony De Longis' videos on the subject and they do more to prove my point than his.
Grappling and blocking and using the handle as a billy-club is all there is.
Or maybe the spike in the handle, but the whip used as a whip is not a weapon I don't think.

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Re: Whips and weapons

Fritz Ehlers wrote:
Ryan Fitts wrote:

Anything you put into your hand is a tool. Anything you put into your mind is a weapon.
In the role of a "weapon", I see the whip as being a counterpart to the knife or pistol. The whip harries and distracts, providing an opening for the more lethal gun or knife. I have more than a few friends who are into Latigo y Daga methods, and have asked me for whips in the 4-6 foot range.

Why would I need to distract anyone with a whip if I have a gun?

Some folks I know train that way. Not trying to imply that I explicitly endorse it. wink Latigo y Daga methods, yeah, I can see that, even just as an exercise in dexterity. It's kind of a moot point anyway, the only time I'm going to have a whip on me is when I'm going somewhere to show somebody my work.

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Re: Whips and weapons

The reson why I feel this is an important subject is that with the whip as a weapon, the whip just gets an unjustified bad reputation.
More and more restrictions are in place for pretty much everything. If has a tag of "weapon" on it, it's likely to get banned.

Knives are a good example. Here in the uk you can not carry anything bigger than an orange peeler and even that comes with a list of restrictions, so for me the whip is a passtime and showpiece like contact juggling and riding a uni-cycle.

I like to see it as a safe family-friendly and fun passtime.

The only acceptable martial arts/whips crossover for me is the whispering whips. It's a bit like Tai Chi incorporating whips. Bobbi, here on the forum can enlighten you all on this better than me.

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Re: Whips and weapons

Fritz Ehlers wrote:

The reason why I feel this is an important subject is that with the whip as a weapon, the whip just gets an unjustified bad reputation.
More and more restrictions are in place for pretty much everything. If has a tag of "weapon" on it, it's likely to get banned.

I like to see it as a safe family-friendly and fun pastime.

Fritz, I'm with you 100% on this!  smile

'Less is often more!'

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Re: Whips and weapons

Robby,

I sometimes carry my whip with me when I go out with friends. It's not for defense, though. It's more like the reason I wear my neck chain: Someone might see it and want one. I never used to wear jewelry before I started making it.

But...then...I also carry my lightsaber. Also not for defense. big_smile

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Re: Whips and weapons

Sorry for the double-post. I just had something to add to my earlier response.

I also very highly doubt Mr. Hero's story. I wasn't there, so I can't say for certain, but it sounds like a bar story to me. Something for the boys, so you can make yourself out to be some kind of tough guy. Also, are there even many boars where he lives? That doesn't sound like the kind of thing one would encounter very often.

I am wearing my skeptical face right now.

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Re: Whips and weapons

Yeah...scaring a wild boar away with a whip. Let me guess, then he stepped into a phone booth, changed into his superhero costume and flew away! wink

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Re: Whips and weapons

It does scare some stray dogs in out neighborhood when walking at night. Especially those pack of strays near our block who snarl and bark at people who pass by.

But for some reason, cats aren't scared by it. They actually try to chase after the cracker. Hahaha!

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Re: Whips and weapons

I killed a Dragon once, with my razor edged fire-whip.
Alway take it with me when I'm fishing, .......... you never know, ......

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Re: Whips and weapons

Wild boar? Sure, whatever tongue

This "whips are weapons" thesis has been on for an eternity, and will probably be for a long time. I dislike it for just the same reason as Fritz. It creates bad reputation, and whipcracking gets you enough weird looks as it is already.

I'm not a fighter myself, but do have a philosophy to follow if there ever comes a situation I have no choice but to fight: Everything is a weapon. By that I mean it's possible to use everything not bolted down as a weapon, all you need is to make it an extension of your hand. Just look around and count everything you could use to end a violent argument if you chose to do so.

And now the actual point. Take all the things you counted, and really think if you could say "I'd rather choose a whip" at any of them. I know there are people who could take me down with a chopstick if I were wielding a sword, but even that hypothetical chopstick ninja would rather use a sword, baseball bat, knife, beer bottle or just about anything non-chopsticky if he had a choice.

Everything is a weapon as soon as you decide to use it as such. But I just cannot think of a situation where a whip could be seen as the best option of things you can pick up and hospitalize people with.


- Pokkis

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Re: Whips and weapons

I agree with those that say a weapon is anything that can be used to harm another person. The list is endless. So in this regard the whip can be a weapon.

The other thing is that not all whips are alike, the bullwhip would probably not make a very efficient weapon, but as mentioned there are whips designed to be weapons and as David said you could modify a bullwhip to be a more efficient weapon. But there are also whips like the Sjambok, the sjambok is not a whip in the traditional sense but is regarded as a whip here in South Africa. It is also carried frequently in rural areas as a self defense tool and it is a very effective tool against most other weapons besides a gun. The riot police in South Africa during apartheid were famous for carrying sjamboks to beat protesters, and it was used with deadly force. Rural people in Africa often have considerable stick fighting skills (learnt from a young age) and I would not like someone with these skills to beat me with a sjambok.

Moral of the story is that a whip like a bullwhip was built to be used as an agricultural tool and it is good at that use, on the other hand a sjambok is built to be a weapon and it too is good for it's purpose. Would it help banning them because they are weapons? I dont think so, the amount of damage you could inflict with a sjambok could probably be replicated by a garden hose. And it would be silly to ban garden hoses because it can potentially be used to inflict harm

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Re: Whips and weapons

As to banning all potential weapons, just think what damage an aggressive person might do with an ordinary fork from the dinner table! Should forks be banned forthwith, lest they fall into the wrong hands?   tongue

'Less is often more!'

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Re: Whips and weapons

.

I've seen a serious and mean fight between a martial arts superhero/teacher/master what ever and a MMA fighter. The martial arts guy stated that he's a master in Karate and shaolin Kung Fu. The other one only said: "If I come close enough, I'll kill him". They were waiting for the referee's signal. That signal came and the MMA guy just ran over the "Master". He literally ran into him, grabed his head, crushed him into the ground and hit him instantly and extremely hard. It took about five or seven seconds and the referee jumped in. To save that Karate/Kung Fu guy. In a way he was too late. The "Master" was laying on the floor, heavily injured, bleeding and unconscious. I imagined what it would've looked like if the Karate guy had a whip, ready to strike. Nothing would change. Nothing. With a whip you have a clear defined impact point. With a short whip it's nearer, with a longer whip it's more away from you. As soon anyone is within the whip's range, the whip is useless. On the other hand - that MMA guy came in that brutal, fast, hard and effective that I'm not sure that even a knife would have helped the other guy.

I know that a lot of folks see the whip as the defense/attack weapon. And I respect their opinion. On the other hand they have to respect my point of view. And my point of view is a very practical one. When I was at the age between 16 and 22, I spent a lot of time in police stations and/or hospitals, because I had serious and brutal brawls at least two times a month. Some I won, some I lost. Sometimes I beat up others very bad. Sometimes I was beaten up that I had to stay in hospital for a few days. I was living in a very shady area of the city. I was young and I wanted to proof myself every day. But... That made me a very good and realistic teacher for Karate and self defense. Because I experienced all that stuff first hand. When I beat up a guy that hard that there was a risk that he could die, that was a wake up call for me. And I never raised my hand against another person. To defend others, yes. But never when someone provoked me. Never.

And when I think back, a whip - long or short - would've been never helpful. Not a single time in all these battles. My thoughts on that matter.

Robby

I have a screwdriver. I am Legend...

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Re: Whips and weapons

Robby, I think that also has lots to do with the fighters. Think about it. An experienced MMA fighter is more of a street brawler than a martial arts master, and that's really what counts there. The martial arts master has trained himself in self control and discipline that just won't turn off whenever there's violence involved.

I've never been into violence, but I've seen it enough to say that it never looks cool like it does in movies. Real fights are boring and not grand displays of flashy, jump-kicky kungfu coreographies. In fact even the most ridiculous fight scenes in Gymkata aren't the least bit more outlandish and stupid compared to real life than the coolest Jet Li movies you've seen. Yet more reasons for me to believe in my "everything is a weapon" thesis so that a beer bottle, screwdriver, car antenna or fire extinguisher would be way above a whip on anyone's list of things to pick up when shit gets serious.

And with the fights I've seen? A whip would have done a great job in pissing off the angry guy with not much to lose, and that's about it.

(Oh, and if you haven't seen Gymkata, you should absolutely watch it smile


- Pokkis

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Re: Whips and weapons

.

Oh, Pokkis. What have I done to you that you let me see this...?  I watched  the trailer. Good heavens. I'm blind  smile

Robby

I have a screwdriver. I am Legend...

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Re: Whips and weapons

One of the best bad movies ever. You're welcome smile


- Pokkis

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Re: Whips and weapons

I'm so naive about these things. Until you said it was a 'bad movie', Pokkis, I didn't even know it was a movie. (I had no idea what it was!)  tongue

'Less is often more!'

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Re: Whips and weapons

Robby Amper wrote:

.I imagined what it would've looked like if the Karate guy had a whip, ready to strike. Nothing would change. Nothing. With a whip you have a clear defined impact point. With a short whip it's nearer, with a longer whip it's more away from you. As soon anyone is within the whip's range, the whip is useless. On the other hand - that MMA guy came in that brutal, fast, hard and effective that I'm not sure that even a knife would have helped the other guy.

I don't remember if I've told this story before, but we do an exercise in Hapkido class.

Everyone participates.  Even the novice students.

The exercise works like this:  One person stands across the room. He or she is the defender.  That person is armed with a paintball gun and dressed in white clothing.

On the other side of the room is the attacker, armed with a red marker (to simulate a knife).

The attacker gets to choose when to start. The defender must keep the gun holstered until the attacker is moving.  When ready, the attacker rushes across the room as fast as he or she can, with only one goal in mind:  To "cut" the defender as many times as possible before being shot.

It doesn't matter if the defender is the instructor of the class (who happens to be a former Marine and very good with firearms) or a complete novice white belt, the outcome is always one of two things...

1. Defender is dead, dead, DEAD! and the attacker is not (very often, not even "shot" one time).
2. Defender maybe is able to "kill" the attacker, but not before getting at least ONE serious cut in a potentially life-threatening location.

Never is the defender not seriously injured. No matter how many times we run this exercise, or how prepared the defender thinks they were.

That is using a gun for defense, the supposed "quintessential" self defense weapon.  We will also run this with knife against attacker.  Nothing against attacker.  Whatever variation and combination you feel like.

Outcome is always the same:  Someone rushes at you, experienced or not, and you're going to get hurt, experienced or not.

The only two variables that ever make any difference is either to take the exercise outside, where the defender has more options to get out of the way (i.e., run), allowing him or her to try to get back at least some tactical advantage, or to have a third party say "go" to start the exercise (giving the defender a slightly better reaction time, but this second option only ever made a very small difference -- the defender still almost always gets "hurt").

The moral of the story? Guns, knives, fists, baseball bats, chairs, even whips... if you are in a "use what you've got" situation, these are all merely potential tools. None of them are "perfect."

There is only ONE perfect weapon and that is TIME.

Whether you're an experienced fighter able to assess and react quickly, or whether you can control distance, time -- time to react, to defend, to attack -- is what matters.

In your example, Robby, and in our class exercise, it is always the attacker (or more aggressive person) who has the advantage because they control the time by rushing in so fast.

All of the fancy cracking, body wraps, entanglements, etc., in the world won't matter one bit if you've got an aggressive opponent willing to take a hit to get to you.  This is my frustration when I see all of the "whip is a perfect weapon" videos, because they always assume a passive attacker, which is how you train when LEARNING techniques, but not how you train when actually practicing to defend yourself.

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Re: Whips and weapons

Robert, this makes such absolute sense that I can't think how anyone could question it. I suspect, however, that there will be fantasists out there who do - until, of course, they're on the receiving end of an attack themselves.

The only sane course (it seems to me, as a non-fighter) is: avoid!

'Less is often more!'